redwerecat
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"My words are my weapons. I AM the God of Lies..."
Posts: 48
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Post by redwerecat on Oct 27, 2012 22:34:42 GMT -5
Hmmmm. I suppose that's true. I still like the thought of a female only on gold, same for bronzes... maybe the other sets have more fluid choices? I don't really know where to go from there, honestly. I guess it's up to ...well, you!
So far the bias tends to be for cross-impression but not necessarily cross-gendered dragons. Hum. Well, that would also solve the problem? Then again, it's ALSO said that green dragons are by FAR the most common and generally prefer to pick females so aside from the general assumption that for most people green and blue are 'not impressive enough' or so forth (just being generic, and not saying anyone here thinks that- I personally set blues as my top favorite dragons ever, with my greens right after!) So most people tend to be 'upset' if you give thweir character a green and they were gunning for a queen-rank.
Anyway, my experience. I actually love my recent experiences where they proved this hella wrong, and it made me gleeful. I've just had BAD experiences in the past with so'called 'Shiny-hunters'... there was relevance here I swear. OH YES. Non-rankers (the equivalents of brown, blue and green) are FAR more common than queens and princes combined, so... well. I always thought it evened out.
Cross impression seems like the easiest solution. If Just Lieutenants cross-impressed, it would STILL even the ratios out nicely. I think.
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Post by ASTROLOGICAL!! on Oct 28, 2012 15:11:37 GMT -5
I think I understand what Cat is saying.
And my main concern with cross-Impressing Queens is that most of Pern is uh, very misogynist. I'll admit that my main concern with gender-bending Aleiph was that suddenly everyone would hate her character just because of her gender. And I admit, one of the reasons I respect Summer is because she wasn't afraid to admit on her app that she's interested in a Queen, even though on Pern sites that usually means instant death.
Because, while men are allowed to express interest in rankers, HEAVEN FORBID women express interest in rank! I've seen it happen. Boys that make stereotypical bronze-grabbers ask for bronze and receive. Girls that ask for gold, even if their character is interesting, get nothing.
So I guess I wouldn't argue too much about metallic cross-impression so long as we have at least one female PC on a queen-rank and on a prince-rank. I don't want it to become another excuse to hate on female characters. I like Nyche and Aleiph and I don't want them to become despised for what's between their legs like I've seen so often on Pern.
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Post by summerrain on Oct 28, 2012 15:29:49 GMT -5
I'm gonna come out and say that I've never really been a victim of haters just because I like Queen dragons...
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Post by ASTROLOGICAL!! on Oct 28, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5
Weird, because I'd see it happen all the time.
Maybe you got lucky and found sites that weren't like that and I just ended up prowling the drama-filled Weyrs.
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Post by summerrain on Oct 28, 2012 15:49:12 GMT -5
Then again, I was never one of the people who threw a fit when I got something else... I just like the Queen dragons. I don't really care if I get something other than a Queen.
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Post by Whim on Oct 28, 2012 15:49:34 GMT -5
I'm... not entirely sure whether you mean IC or OOC there, Astro, but some of that is part of my concern. If you ignore browns/brown-levels, since they mostly Impress men here and in many places exclusively Impress men, and many people don't consider them a high rank anyway since they seem to be more focused on assisting the bronzes, that leaves only the queens for women and only the princes for men.
The population of a large Weyr at its peak seems to generally be 500-600 dragons (which I believe matches the books reasonably well). With the numbers I'm using to generate hatchlings, that means 5-6 queens and 50-60 princes. All prejudice aside (not that it doesn't exist, but ignoring it), female characters who want queens don't get queens because there simply are no queens to give. Princes, on the other hand, there are plenty of for every writer on even the largest sites I've seen to have one, and on the more common sites, for the PCs to be exclusively prince riders and still have some left over as NPCs. A similar problem occurs IC: women with the perfect mindset and personality to lead don't get to lead because there's no queen to Impress them.
(Incidentally, the numbers I'm using aren't quite canon; canon Weyrs seem to have about 3 queens in a Weyr, so half as many as I'd generate.)
In character, the majority of males don't care, because why would they? A minority might care, but shrug and decide there's nothing they can to. Women would probably show similar attitudes, if with the 'it sucks but can't be changed' attitude being a bit more common.
However, in canon Pern, green dragons prefer females, but were forced to choose boys because only male candidates were available. (There are a few minor plot holes that could be debated, but I'm ignoring them for now.) This indicates that any '(rank) only Impresses men/only Impresses women' rule is a preference, not a statement on the dragon's ability to Impress. If princes (or browns) had only female candidates to choose from, they would choose female riders, the same as greens chose male riders. (This logic was used as the basis for the Sapphos Weyr site.)
So, technically speaking, any dragon can Impress to any gender already. They are unlikely to unless unusual circumstances arise, but they are able to, and if such circumstances occur, they will.
So, the point I'm (slowly) getting to is this: the Pern of Cat's Paw Weyr is at a weird point, socially; partly because Pern was weird to begin with, but also partly because of the inclusion of the Tailed. I will remind everyone that, due to the tails, clothing is all unisex in this Pern; your guys can wear skirts exclusively and no one will comprehend why anyone might think it's noteworthy. However, it's a feudal-esque setting, which tends to give very strictly defined roles to women, which Pern shows, but being a dragonrider at all is a huge exception to those rules. Also, Pern (based on canon) is far more tolerant of homosexuality than of women, which I could compare to historical times and attitudes but isn't really that similar, and has entirely different ideas behind it.
In short: our Pern is nicely poised for female dragonriders (and possibly other women as well, especially in certain crafts) to start a feminist movement. Who would be interested in writing one?
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vworp
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Post by vworp on Oct 28, 2012 21:21:36 GMT -5
I really love men on Queens, personally, as long as women can also Impress the "kings."
Besides that...I'm a former Women's Studies major. You had me at "feminist movement." I would totally be interested in a plot like that. The two characters I have planned right now are male, but once I get to 50 posts I'll make a woman and she can be a fierce feminist.
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redwerecat
New Member
[M:100:-25:]
"My words are my weapons. I AM the God of Lies..."
Posts: 48
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Post by redwerecat on Oct 28, 2012 21:57:21 GMT -5
I think I got stuck with a few very choice exceptions of drama-llamas in the past. All my sites have been beautifully accepting and not at all Queen-biased, with the exception of...well. Those select few players. (Creating serious drama because 'their character did not impress XXX' and they refused to play, and began to harass another player who's character had impressed XXX color they wanted, etc. Oi. Bad times.)
Men on Queens interests me, yes, but I would argue that I'd be leery if it were a typical 'Bronzerider' character-type that impressed a Queen suddenly because I really do feel a dragon picks a particular type of person. A matronly, motherly, queen would (imho) never impress a man who was a 'Leader' type. That's why Bronzes are bronzes, yanno? It always seemed to me queens pick a particular type of person (according to the books, in my readings, anyway) and Lessa was a rather remarkable exception to that... I dunno. I get really leery of ranked colors to begin with because it always seems to be the same character! They pick a very strict set of traits that ring to me as way too Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I know THAT is probably just me being ridiculous... that and my personal preference for playing a character as madly off the beaten path. (And thus rarely rank-applicable according to most sites.) NOTE! I'm not complaining- I never have and probably never will. I'm just pointing out a trend I've seen a few places.
No, I really do understand Whim's logic- there are just NOT ENOUGH QUEENS. Usually one per clutch is my rp experience (and is usually handwaved off by saying only the 'onscreen' clutches count, etc.) Hm.
I LOVE that summer stated that. I also have experience with bad admins waving off anyone as a 'shiny hunter' if they DO put a preference for a Gold/bronze/whatever on an app... I dunno. I've been around. (She says, sounding very silly and old-fashioned. XD) I don't know, I doubt I'm being clear. (Again.)
I really like the idea either way.
Re: Feminist/Womens Movement: I'd love more details? If it were a womens lib movememnt type thing that would be awesome, but I don;t think Pern is in the right place for that. (Weirdly, I kind of viewed it as a Spartan society in the Weyrs- men and low-ranked women [non-clutching females] fight and protect pern, while the queens are 'special' and set to command from behind as it were- raise a new generation of Pern and yet have ultimate power because no lower ranked dragon can/will disobey a queen. Outside the Weyrs I thought it was far more feudal with a kind of severe Male bias.
tl;dr- Weyrs are strangely gender-equality minded. (They understand the importance of both genders.) They're also much more accepting of sexual preference and race, etc. I always saw the non-dragonbred parts of Pern to be relatively... medieval in their mindsets.
Hm. Maybe a revolution of Pern could be interesting- not just womens lib/feminist movement among the weyrs but the ladies wth such dragons fighting for all of Pern's women?
Uh. Yeah. I'd be interested.
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Post by Whim on Oct 29, 2012 16:23:20 GMT -5
Lessa is an interesting matter, since if you remember when she Impressed Ramoth, Ramoth was actually not interested in her at all--she grabbed Ramoth and essentially forced the Impression when Ramoth was going after other women. (Which is something that potentially could be used to facilitate cross-impression here, though I'd be more than a bit cautious about using it, since one character could quite literally 'steal' another's dragon.) The bronze and gold riders do have very definite Sue tendencies, which I think are exaggerated by most players not wanting to explore the flaws that they could have; 'lazy' or 'shy' are pretty acceptable flaws, but won't get anyone a bronze; 'misogynist' or 'looks down on anyone with lower rank as inferior and deserving what they get' are fairly realistic bronze rider flaws, but not ones most people want to play, either because they make the character kind of uncomfortable or just because they limit interaction.
Although, I do think that many queen riders had leadership traits; they just were far, far more subtle about it than Lessa was, and generally worked through the bronze riders instead of demanding that everyone recognize them. So Lessa was an exception, but not as drastic.
I will also add that with the numbers I'm using, Queens will be closer to one in three or four clutches (excepting when I deliberately adjust that, such as for the opening goal).
Personally, I largely prefer the bronze and gold dragons simply because I prefer the plots that they allow--a green or blue rider can't really do much plotting to change a Weyr's politics, because they have no say and never will, unless they can convince a higher-ranked rider to do it for them. Or unless I attempt to instigate a full revolution and turn the Weyr into a democracy, which seems like a very difficult thing to do with the dragons, not something the Pernese would even think of, and not a wise thing to do at this point anyway, with Thread. So, while I have picked up a little bit of leeriness toward apps that include 'I only want the queen! Nothing else!' I view it more like being related to a lord holder or having some dramatic, unlikely backstory; something that Sues often do, but which also has perfectly good non-Sue uses, and is only a problem if there's a lot of other warning traits in the same app.
Now, for feminism....
First, I will say that I view the weyrs as not being gender neutral, so much as they are pro-dragon. "The dragon's choice is never wrong" is something that I believe was actually used more than once in canon, and as they can't get rid of female riders, they accept them. Non-rider women in the weyr (mainly the ones in the kitchens) seem to be treated essentially the same as hold women are, if possibly with less shame for sleeping with the dragon riders. So it works out better for women in the weyrs, but it's not really because the weyrs are more accepting. (And, well, 'better' still isn't 'good.')
(I had several paragraphs of rambling about my thoughts and logic, but... well, it was several paragraphs of rambling. I can explain in more detail, but unless someone wants me to, I'll try to cut this down.)
Feminism on Pern would not be very similar to feminism on Earth. Pern, as far as I can tell, has no real legal limits on women; Lessa never considers that she might be denied the position of Lord/Lady Holder of Ruatha due to being female, and Thella's story begins with her thinking she should have been made Lady Holder over her younger half brother (and then channeling her rage in a not very good way). No women on Pern will demand the right to vote, because voting is a foreign concept. So all the various things that feminism started with, at least in the US, won't work.
I have two ideas for what might happen if we want a feminist movement. The first, and most realistic one, is about sex; women in Pern have absolutely no right to refuse sex, and it's shown several times. (This is ignoring the impact of flights, because the men in that situation can't really refuse sex either.) Most women seem to accept this, hope they aren't targeted, and move on if they are, but some (in canon Pern, most notably Tai) are not able to cope with it so well.
Female dragonriders would, I think, be much safer because, well, dragon, but they're not safe from male dragonriders, and any woman who isn't a dragonrider isn't safe from any man (of similar or higher rank, at least), presumably unless she's married. The only objections to rape that I'd see as likely to occur would be if a woman was married/otherwise already "belonged" to some other man, or if the woman was of much higher status than the man (such as a Lord Holder's daughter and a craft apprentice). So, it looks like rape is actually a really common, and generally accepted, thing in Pern.
Now, the problem with having a feminist movement plot based on women reacting to this is that it would be a bit hard to balance. Proboards requires that the site be PG13, which just mentioning rape is kind of pushing the limits of in most peoples' opinions. Invisionfree, JCINK, and all other forum creators that I know of have similar PG13 requirements, so switching to another host won't get around that. Pern, similarly, tends as a whole to gloss over any of the dark aspects of its world. Basing a plot on women realizing that half or more of the women in Pern are being raped and no one cares at all would get really dark really fast, and I'm not sure if that's something we necessarily want to do. (Besides which, honestly, I'm not sure how the movement would work, but I doubt the characters would have a clue either, so that could be worked out IC.)
Despite the problems, if we can work around the PG13 limit and are willing to get into these issues, it seems to me like the most likely way for Pern to have something resembling a feminist movement. (For that matter, it could lead to cross-impression through female riders realizing their dragons protect them, and thus trying to get as many female riders as possible to protect those new riders, thus leading to mostly female candidates, thus leading to dragons that would normally Impress men having no men to Impress and choosing a female candidate instead.)
The alternate possibility that I've thought of, which would probably work best combined with the first but could be used separately, would be to have a transgender women (biologically male, mentally and wants to be a woman, in case anyone doesn't know) successfully living as a woman and having the difference in rights essentially shoved in her face. Some people in that situation would ignore it, some would resort to "it sucks but can't be changed" (again), but it's also possible someone might start wondering just why women are treated so differently, and feminist theories could grow from that. (Alternately, it could lead to the creation, or attempted creation, of a third and possibly fourth gender on Pern, but that's an entirely different plot.) This version would, I think, be most likely to create something more like the feminism we know since it would more easily branch into all rights instead of just dealing with rape, but it would also most likely end up dealing with transgender issues, which again, is a separate plot.
I will also add that I absolutely do not comprehend gender, or apparently identity at all, so A: if I said something stupid when talking about it I'm sorry, and B: if we do choose a plot that needs transgender characters, I won't be able to write them.
So. Feminism could grow out of rape, or a transgender character/s, or both. Either would have issues we'd have to be cautious of. Or someone else could suggest a way for it to happen. Or we could just drop the feminist movement and stick to other, less complicated, more typical plots.
Wow, that was an essay. Sorry about the length; I may try editing this shorter later....
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Post by moonchilde on Oct 29, 2012 16:58:29 GMT -5
I find it disappointing that women can only impress female brown-level ones. I don't like the idea of restricting women so much to same-gender dragons. Considering both bronzes and browns are the common 'higher level' ranks and that'd make women have only 1/6th of browns and no bronzes... It feels very restrictive. I'd like to see browns of either gender open to women, but then, I also love playing characters with opposite-gender dragons. I understand some people say "women can get blue, men green" but 3/5 of the canon dragons are male, and 1/5 of the female canon dragons are the uber-rare queens so yeah, I'd love to see women riding male browns.
Also, I’m with Astro. I see that all the time- lots of disdain for female candidates. =\ Definitely something I’ve noticed in pern fandom, and I say this as someone who’s never put a woman up for queen rank before. I’ve absolutely seen people go “Eh, I’d like to see her on a Queen, but any color is fine” be criticized for it. I’ve seen people running weyrs nitpick the female candidates and, plot-wise, neglect all but the one they select for Queen, while the male characters get lots of plots. Etc.
I woudn’t mind the idea of a male queenrider only because weyrwomen seem to be in charge largely of keeping track of things in the weyr, while the weyrleader does the fighting type stuff. Swapping the gender roles there would be interesting. If men can get queens and women bronzes, that’d be quite interesting. It also opens up the chance for new dynamics, like the possibility of a gay/lesbian couple as weyrwoman/weyrleader.
I absolutely hate the idea that, if queens can’t impress men, it’s because of matronly habits or whatever. There are plenty of men with that sort of personality, and there are plenty of women who aren’t the least bit feminine. Nor do I want to see stereotypical golds who are always feminine or whatever. I don’t like those roles being enforced like that.
As far as the common flaws of bronzes/etc, R’lar is a pretty blatant misogynist. I understand that with dragons, people can’t play terrible people since the dragon wouldn’t choose them, but I do like seeing actual flaws, instead of the ‘typical’ cliché ones. I’d actually love to see more people play characters with flaws one might expect from ranking characters with inflated egos –shrugs-.
Feminism on pern would be fun to see.
I get what you’re saying about rape on pern but I honestly can’t imagine a dragon allowing their female rider to go through the trauma of being raped. Flight sex is one thing, but dealing with the flashbacks/panic/etc it’d cause otherwise? I can’t imagine a dragon tolerating that, even from another dragonrider. Also, it makes me really uncomfortable to think that even with the status/etc a dragon affords, there’s still no safe place for women dragonriders. Women ought to at least have one safe place… I understand women living in the holds or even in the weyrs may not have protection, but… (And on that note, I’d imagine the consequences for raping a candidate must be rather heavy, since otherwise what holder would send their hold’s children off to be candidates?)
I think there are PG13 ways to involve that, anyway. Another site I’m on, which is PG13, manages to handle the reality of rape tastefully. I think it’s also a matter of how it’s handled, because I’m pretty sensitive to it being played in an exploitative way or as unrealistic. Not naming names, but having talked to a few people about their characters and plotting, I can say we already have at least 1-2 characters who’ve commited a rape on the site, and one who’s been a victim.
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vworp
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Post by vworp on Oct 29, 2012 18:22:07 GMT -5
In All The Weyrs (I think), a greenrider character Tai was raped during a Flight. Basically, because she was a female Greenrider no one really educated her about flights, and she didn't know how to retain enough willpower to make her dragon choose a preferred male, and all the suitors ganged up on her. :/ A bronzerider then teaches her how to exert enough will that she is able to choose a suitor. So, if we're basing it off that, not every female rider is being raped, but some probably are.
That aside, I'd be uncomfortable with making that a big plot on the site, just because I think it might draw a lot of criticism from outside fandom people. Sites have been reported and shut down for even mentioning vague non-con in a Flight post before, so yeah.
On the topic of trans* characters, I played a trans woman on another site. (Biologically male, living as a woman, went by female pronouns, etc.) She Impressed what was considered a junior Queen on that site. But it was already established that color could impress men as well, so it wasn't as controversial. I think there could be a lot of possibilities if something like that happened here.
Also...while we're on the topic of gender, what about intersex characters? Considering that Pern has less medical knowledge, it's possible that some intersex kids grew up without being assigned a biological sex at birth. That could be interesting. (for those who don't know, intersex people can be hermaphrodite--although that term isn't really PC--or other combinations of both male and female sex characteristics.)
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Post by moonchilde on Oct 29, 2012 19:12:08 GMT -5
Like I said- during a flight, I can see. Otherwise, I think the dragon sure as hell would intervene. Or should. Frankly, some of the things Mccaffrey put in her books, I don't like sticking to because they're uncomfortable. Like F'lar being portayed as a good lover for Lessa despite how he physically shakes her and doesn't listen to her. Or F'nor with Brekke- when she was nervous and didn't want to sleep with him but he felt she 'needed' to have sex before her first flight, he's pretty much described as carrying her away crying and beating on his chest, and her dragon doesn't react. I know she's the author and it's her books but ugh I was not comfortable with that (why didn't her dragon care, why was it portrayed as F'nor just being kind and caring, seriously what?). Along with the invisibility of lesbians and gay men being kept to the 'lower rank' dragons... Those are things that I'm not really fond of seeing carried into the pern fandoms. They're an amazing series of books, but... There are parts of them that, frankly, the times have passed by, and that show ideas that people aren't really comfortable with anymore.
I don't really think flight sex is the same thing as rape, either. There's a difference between being caught up in your dragon as the books portray it, vs. choosing to assault someone who doesn't want to have sex with you because you don't care about their wellbeing. I don't think it's fair to compare men who participate in flights, with rapists who intentionally corner and assault a victim of their own free will / knowing she doesn't want them.
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Post by ASTROLOGICAL!! on Oct 29, 2012 19:23:42 GMT -5
I have Aleiph, who feels as if Bronze riders see women as dogs and meat, so I guess it won't necessarily stem from rape as much as "My eyes are up here, and please leave me alone and stop using your rank as an excuse to touch me." She's not comfortable around men because she's been told she'd end up married to one since she was little, and to be honest, while the Weyr is changing things for her, she's still feeling like her place is beneath men. This could upset her a bit and she could possibly start working towards it, finding other women who are displeased with being leered at or treated like they aren't as intelligent/capable/etc and maybe spread from there /shrug. Because if you notice, in-canon, women aren't always seen as equal. Menolly's story is an example, so maybe it can grow from frustrated Crafters who get more subtle forms of misogyny.
For example, I like to think Aleiph's mother is only a Journeyman Beastcrafter despite pouring her life's work into raising animals. There may be other Crafters who've had to struggle to get Master ranks despite working hard. It happens in the real world: there's a glass ceiling, and it can definitely happen in traditionally "male" crafts, i.e. smithing, fishing, and mining.
A female bronze rider might have to face the consequences of being seen as "unworthy" of her bronze, despite the dragon's choice being right. She may be seen as not as good of a rider or as strong as her male counterparts, and the quieter, more insidious misogyny could also cause a spark that creates a fire.
So it's a way of countering the glass ceiling since while the genders are close, they aren't truly equal. And it doesn't necessarily have to involve rape at all, though maybe hint at it a bit but not like, entirely in-yer-face or w/e.
((unrelated but i was on one site where the entire hatching discussion was deciding to give every female character but the admin pair green b/c all the female candidates were mary sues with no personality or gold-grubbing mary sues with no personality and lol let's give them greens to piss them off. it's a long and complicated story but it does happen and that sooort of annoys me b/c the entire discussion was nothing but hate for everyone but the admins' ladies. i've seen a bit of this site, though, and i'm not afraid of that happening here, and i'm confident that whatever aleiph gets won't be used as a personal weapon against me or b/c my character is "not good enough". whim yer awesome and thanks for making this return to pern as painless as possible ;A;.))
((also unrelated but i do enjoy the plots rankers can get. i hope we get PC rankers soon just so we can interact with them and see how all that works, which is mostly why i want a queen egg in the clutch so we can see how that pans out. there's so much potential with queen candidates but i don't see it really taken much, so i'm hoping this one is interesting. i want it to be awesomely played so i can stalk/plot as well.))
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Post by moonchilde on Oct 29, 2012 19:36:52 GMT -5
I'm totally on board with astro's ideas about inequality with crafters- or maybe female brown/bronze riders not being allowed to lead wings like males? Honestly, I think it casts dragons in a weird light if they're okay with letting their riders get raped without some sort of outrage or fear for them or /something/. Or if they're cool with, outside flights, their riders forcing people into sex. Riders with PTSD sounds like a terrible thing for wing cohesion and thread fighting too. I feel like it's almost a cheap plot point to just resort to like 'women have so little sway in pern that even a dragonrider can be raped and it's no big deal'. And riders who are rapists- how is that gonna go over with the holds and halls who allow candidates to be searched? Not well, one would imagine. I can't imagine a Queen, whose rider leads the weyr and who can control the other dragons, being cool with letting that happen. And it's not like one can keep secrets long in a weyr, not when dragons talk. I'm not saying it should never happen but there should be reprecussions even for a rider. And you'd think their dragon would be upset that, y'know, their lifemate was doing something horrible. Didn't some dragons in canon between when riders did something dishonorable? I'm pretty sure non-flight rape especially of a fellow rider, since that also affects that rider's dragon, would be an issue. Also, vworp, even if your two current characters are male, why can't one of them be a feminist instead of needing to make a new female character? Not all feminists are female...
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redwerecat
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[M:100:-25:]
"My words are my weapons. I AM the God of Lies..."
Posts: 48
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Post by redwerecat on Oct 31, 2012 3:07:20 GMT -5
I really fully support both genders on all the non-metallic equivalents, for some reason, to me, it has always seemed like the fairest, best logic in my head. I simply have gotten used to it... I dunno. I still am apparently in my soul preferential to firm gender roles in queens and bronzes (dunno where THAT came from, but there it is.) That being said, I also like the ideas that cross-impression could generate, and even the plots and upheaval it might cause. Imagine- a girl on a bronze- her dragon might say one thing, but what if everyone else suddenly decides even with a bronze she's still just a GIRL? Nobody treats her any better... and it would say a lot to goldriders who LET themselves be pushed around by a bronzer... their dragon may want to help, but if the woman herself said to let him continue, and let herself be delegated to the background role, what would a dragon do? Disobey? No, she'd probably comply with her rider's wishes... so maybe we need some strong, bossy women in queenrider positions...
No, I like and support the idea.
Traits of Characters- I LOVE it when people properly throw their flaws in. And not just 'Colorist/racist/misogynist' bronzers or some such. I am all for throwing not-okay people in the mix. Many sites tend to be of the opinion that a dragon wouldn't pick someone who was mentally unstable or not reliable as a rider, but I've found that there are ways around that. Dragons aren't perfect, neither are people. I don;t mean a homicidal maniac would necessarily impress (though if you end up on one of my other sites, it can and will happen- then again, Dark!Pern is dark.)
See, yeah, again, most places assume dragons are NOT alright with their riders killing people (though Mnementh didn't seem to care when his rider killed Fax...?) or things like rape... they seem to hold a pretty solid moral code, natch? But things like... like... the minor evils of the world? Well... a dragons love can overlook a lot, right? So his rider is kind of a jerk. So he loses his temper when drunk... the dragon didn't initially know. I don;t vote for hopeless cases on gaining Impression, but... well. Maybe a dragon brings them up? Anyway... I've had a bipolar borderline alcoholic impress, and he turned out okay. (Okay, a little stupid, but his dragon helped calm him the hell down when he was up, and keep his spirits up when he was down...) I've always preferred to play flawed people, probably to an annoying extent... I enjoy breaking my characters. Most places don't allow that, of course, so I DO restrict myself to places where thing are seriously just beyond the limits of normal Pern canon. But yeah... people are jerks. And Jerks can still be good riders, even if they're jerks as people. Maybe a guy's a terrible father, but a GREAT wingleader. Maybe she's an alcoholic and depressed, but she's the best searchrider people have seen...? Anyway, this got rambly, I'm just saying.
Why are dragons never flawed? Pern canon seems to hold that they're all very noble, righteous creatures.. but why can;t one be stupid, or rude, or gluttonous, or even just a mean, nasty little monster? I don't think draconic murderers are okay, but... you know.
Rape- It's not okay. I've always seen it as that the Weyrs have a much more accepting and liberal view than the Holds/non-weyrfolk. About homosexuality, about sex in general, about women's roles, about rape... everything. Very dark ages about everything. I DONT see a dragon ever letting ANYONE hurt their rider in any case beyond flight. There, I see a dragon as possibly feeling guilt afterwards, but that flights were actually an exception, and something all riders try to prepare new riders for as best they can- especially riders of females. They warn them, they try to prepare them, they do everything to ensure the flight goes well. (At least on OUR pern. Tai was an exception as one of the first female greenriders in hundreds of years, so no one knew exactly what to do with her.)
I am fine for putting rape in as a plot point or whatever was discussed. It IS possible to keep it under a mature-level rating as long as it's handled properly. (Obviously graphic descriptions are no-go, but mention and the handling of a subject with care can stay under the rating. I know, I've managed it on different sites.) I don;t really want to see it as a backstory everywhere, and damn if I'm not going to get pissed if people only put it in for drama and don't take the consequences seriously, but yeah... I also think we're all much better than that.
Non-con in flight- I am a full supporter of 'Dragon decides, rider complies'. However badly it may be the next morning, in the act it's consensual. (I've even had a female man-phobic [literally terrified of men due to...well, you guessed it the r-word] fall in with a gay man because her blue flew his green. The next morning they resolved never to speak of the issue and ignored it entirely other than taking very, very long showers and going 'uuuugggghhhhh' whenever they thought about it. But Neither saw it as RAPE. Just an unfortunate circumstance of something that meant a lot to their dragons, and they moved on.
Gender/transgender/Gay Bronzers and such- I'm all for it. I have in fact played a transgender female (biologically male, lived as a woman, dragon referred to her a female, but occasionally had male pronouns and elided rider name forced into use- I loved her, but she was very difficult to play properly...) ANYWAY. She impressed green, but mostly because I pre-made her for such, and created her as an already established rider. I could see that being a good motivation for cross-impression, but I also see the right personality in a male being a good candidate for a goldrider.
ALSO- Golds who are all regal and motherly. Why? I've been on a site with established golds of ALL types. The weyrwoman's dragon was kind of a feminazi, hated flying but loved her clutches, and frequently chased her bronze mate out because both she and her rider hated the weyrleader- he had almost NO power and eventually died. (Then the next weyrleader was a female... who rode a brown. She was AWESOME.) The junior has a typical dragon, and has had rape in her history, and it was used as a way to 'break' her while her dragon was VERY young. It didn;t actually work, and eventually when the gold got old enough she began to try to attack any male who came near her rider... so yeah.
The others were a very opinionated gold who was your typical gold, a sterile gold who only wanted to fight, and a pair of twins, the older of which was regal, vain, and very queenly, and the younger of which who is turning into a brash, bold, tomboy who likes to dare people into doing things. (She's mine, actually, and is the least queenly queen ever. And her rider is a tiny girl who only knows how to cook, can't read, and has a habit of attacking people with soup ladles. Kind of a homebody. Oh, she's also terminally shy and afraid of being forced into a leadership position...) ANYWAY. I like dragons with variety. I don't see why a queen has to be 'typical'....
ANYWAY. I don't see why a gay male could not impress a bronze if his personality was right. So, during flights, he might be temporarily, biologically, draconically induced into copulation with a female in the heat of the moment, but after? Back to not giving a damn about women. Anyway...sexuality-based Impression has always seemed ludicrous.
Feminism- I think it needs to be brought about... I think the best way WOULD be a dragon-revolution. Women realizing that in the Weyrs things are different... thus why are they so ass-backwards everywhere else...?
Anne- Okay, seriously Anne is our lord and master when it comes to Pern, sure, but it doesn't mean she was kind of an idiot when it came to certain topics. She wrote sues pretty blatantly, she wrote in a time where the whole 'F'nor thing' was viewed differently when it was kind of not okay by any standards even when Brekke did come around and come to love F'nor eventually. And hey, come on I'm just going to slide in the mention of her 'tent peg argument' when it comes to homosexuality which frankly boggles my mind.
She also confused feet and meters as the same thing for years, so yeah, she made mistakes.
((On that side not, I just want to say- I don't know if we're throwing Todd's books in here, but back to the latent psychic abilities arguments? A couple of his characters have them. One girl has future sight, another has the queen's gift of 'pushing' people like Lessa, and I SWEAR one was a telekinetic... but then again, Todd broke a bunch of weird rules... about all I'll give him is his playing with Whers again and Zhinna being a badass lady on a badass blue and being the female Weyrleader.))
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